Heat Treat Today publisher and Heat Treat Radio host, Doug Glenn, is joined by Dan Herring, known in the industry as The Heat Treat Doctor® of The HERRING GROUP, Inc. In the second installment of a periodic feature called Heat Treat Legends, listen as Dan tells stories from his 50 years of expertise and experience in the industry.
Below, you can watch the video, listen to the podcast by clicking on the audio play button, or read an edited transcript.
The following transcript has been edited for your reading enjoyment.
Doug Glenn: Dan, thank you for joining us. As you know, we’ve spoken before about this: You are actually second on our list of recordings that we’re doing in what we’re calling our Heat Treat Legends podcasts. There were several people that I had at the top of my list — you were one of them. First off, congratulations for being on that list and we’re looking forward to the interview today with you.
Dan Herring: Doug, it’s my pleasure to be here. I just want to say that I consider this a distinct privilege to be considered one of the heat treat legends. But I’d also like to point out to everyone who listens to this that no one individual can do it by themselves. So, I’m accepting this accolade, if you will, on behalf of the many men and women who toiled in, what I’m going to call, relative obscurity and who made this industry what it is today. On their behalf, I’m more than willing to be considered one of the Heat Treat Legends.
DG: Thank you, Dan, that’s very magnanimous of you — that’s very generous and a good way to start and keeps with the character that I know you have.
Let’s go back and talk a little bit about your history, very briefly, to give people a sense of when you started in the industry and your work history. We don’t want to go into too much detail, just where you’ve worked and things of that sort.
First time I met you, Dan, I can still recall it, was in the office of Mr. Ron Mowry at C. I. Hayes and I’m not sure whether it was Warwick or Cranston, Rhode Island, I’m not sure where they were located at the time, but I was a young buck in the industry and went up there with one of my colleagues to visit Ron, and you were there. That’s where I knew you started, where I met you at C.I. Hayes, but there may be time prior to that in the industry where you were already in the heat treat industry. Very briefly, go ahead and give us your history.
DH: First of all, Doug, you’ve got a great memory. I remember meeting you, as well. I’ve been in the industry now a little over 50 years. My working career prior to becoming a consultant in the industry dealt with, or I worked for, three companies and they were furnace manufacturers or, what we call in the industry, original equipment manufacturers. That was Lindberg, which was in the 1970s, C.I. Hayes which was in the 1980s and early 1990s, and then briefly for Ipsen. Then, I "got smart," as the phrase goes, and I saw an opportunity and I formed my own little company called The HERRING GROUP, Inc.
One of the things throughout my career, Doug, that’s rather interesting, is I’ve held an incredible number of different jobs with different responsibilities. I was hired as a corporate trainee by Lindberg. What that meant was that the corporation paid my salary and not the plant, so they were happy to have me, but I was a junior metallurgist who became a metallurgist who ultimately became the chief metallurgist of the organization. Along the way, I worked in engineering, I worked in international marketing, I was a junior application engineer, a senior application engineer, I was a product manager, finally winding up as chief engineer of the company. I joined C.I. Hayes and worked as their corporate metallurgist then became the technical director for the midwestern region of the United States, research and development director at Ipsen, director of new product development.
"My curiosity and interest in science has fueled, if you will, my working career. Metallurgy was once defined to me to be “the chemistry of metals,” which I’ll never forget – I enjoyed that definition." - Dan Herring, The Heat Treat Doctor
So, I’ve done a variety of different tasks. You might say that I’ve been a chief cook and bottle washer of the industry, if you will. But all those tasks, seriously, have taught me what I know today. I learned something from every job I had. Most of my career has been spent “hands-on,” what I mean by that is actively running either heat treat departments, up to a dozen furnaces in the case of Lindberg (there were atmosphere furnaces, there were vacuum furnaces, there were induction heating equipment), running thousands of processes from anything from hardening to enameling. I ran hundreds and hundreds of demonstrations for customers to prove out that the process would work in a particular furnace. I’ve also had the good fortune throughout my career for a period of about 10+ years, I traveled about 15 days a month. To put that in perspective for people, there are only 20 to 22 working days a month. I was visiting customers, visiting manufacturing facilities up to 15 days a month and did that for over 10 years. So, I got to meet quite several people in the industry who, again, shared their experiences and their knowledge. I came across an infinite number of problems in the field that needed solutions, and on and on and on.
Where it began, interestingly enough, and I’m going to put a little call-out here to my parents, that always pushed me to become what I call the best version of myself. My mother was a registered nurse, but I would swear she was an English teacher in disguise; it’s where I learned my love of writing. My father was a machinist — a hands-on guy that ran screw machines. He was one of the most inventive people that I ever met. He was really a good, common-sense individual. And, to horrify the listeners, I’ve been in machine shops since I’ve been six years old. Today, you would never, ever bring a child to work with you and only tell them, “Don’t touch anything and watch yourself.” But anyway, I learned a great deal on the shop floor, so to speak. Then, combined with my education as an undergraduate in engineering and graduate work at the Illinois Institute of Technology, I’ve learned a great deal of my craft from there.
That’s a brief overview of who I am. I’m an equipment guy, I’m a process guy, I’m a hands-on guy, and basically, I’m a problem-solver.
DG: Yes, right. There are two other things, Dan, I’d like to highlight that you’ve humbly left out of your description. One was, back in the day, when I was working for Industrial Heating as their publisher, you and I connected, and you started authoring a monthly column for them for over 10 years, I’m guessing, and had done that for quite some time. Not just because of that, but I would assume somewhat because of that, you heightened yourself as The Heat Treat Doctor®, which you did not mention but I think that’s how you’re really known in a lot of the industry is as The Heat Treat Doctor® from your website and, of course, from some of those columns. I think that’s notable.
And you also did not mention that you are an author of four books: Vacuum Heat Treating Volumes I and II and Atmosphere Heat Treating Volumes I and II, both fairly significant tomes in and of themselves.
DH: Well, thank you, Doug. We’ll talk a little bit more about The Heat Treat Doctor® brand perhaps a little later, but, yes, those are some of the accomplishments on my resume.
DG: Good, good, good.
You mentioned earlier, about some people — you mentioned specifically your parents, which I think was great. It’s very, very interesting, I always find, to see what influence parents have had on people. Is there anyone else you would like to mention that has been significant in the advancement of you and your advancement in the heat treat industry throughout the years?
DH: Well, a few people I think are noteworthy. But I’d like to begin on a rather interesting note. When I was a young boy growing up in Chicago, I want to credit my next-door neighbor, Mr. Joe Pallelo. He happened to be this strange person called a “heat treater.” I didn’t know what he did exactly, but he and my father would spend endless hours either talking between fences or in our yard or in his yard, so I grew up listening to two people talk about heat treating, among other things, which is very unique. Now, truth be told, and I probably shouldn’t admit this but I’m old enough to say it — I was probably more interested in his daughter than I was in him (true story!), but some metallurgy rubbed off along the way.
Also, I think it’s interesting that I have had the extremely good fortune of working for two or three people that actually fell in the genius category. These people were absolutely, positively of genius intellects and they worked within the heat treating industry. At Lindberg, there was a fellow by the name of Hobart Wentworth (aka Bart Wentworth) whose grandfather or great grandfather (I forget which) was actually mayor of Chicago, and he taught me the engineering discipline, if you will. In other words, translating what you learn in university into the real world.
The second one was a guy by the name of Russ Novy. Russ was the chief metallurgist at Lindberg when I started. He was actually a mechanical engineer, of all things, but was one of the smartest and finest metallurgists I ever knew. He had infinite patience, Doug, to tell you what he had learned, and explain things and talk about the root cause of things.
Then, at C.I. Hayes, I must give a shoutout to Herb Western. Herb, still to this day, by the way, holds the record, I believe it’s 300 patents in the state of Rhode Island. The first time I saw Herb he was sitting at this desk fiddling, believe it or not, with typewriter keys. He had a pile of typewriter keys on his desk — he would lift them up and drop them back into the pile, lift them up and drop them back into the pile. Now, I’m a brand-new employee. I’ve been introduced to him — that’s the only thing that stopped him from lifting and dropping typewriter keys. I watched him do this (because my office was right across kitty corner from his) for four days! I’m asking, “What are they paying this guy for?” Then, one day he got up and he walked away from his desk and a little later when I was out in the shop, I noticed that he was building a furnace. He built a furnace; he ran the typewriter keys in that furnace and C.I. Hayes was fortunate enough to get hundreds of thousands of dollars’ worth of business from this strange company called IBM to [indiscernible] typewrite keys.
"The things you learn in the industry, you must share because you strengthen the industry by doing that, you give the industry a competitive advantage by doing that and you’re helping, in your own small way, to educate the next generation of heat treaters. Because, at the end of your career, I think what you’re going to find is that what is important in our industry is to lead not to follow." -Dan Herring, The Heat Treat Doctor
So, Herb had many, many inventions. He was an extremely creative fella. One more quick story — I don’t know if you want to take the time, but it’s worth it: Herb was the only guy I ever knew that while driving through a car wash got a brilliant idea for load transfer, through and in a furnace, from a car wash. He rode back through the carwash multiple times (of course, with the windows down), looking at the transfer mechanism and then went back to the shop and designed the principal drive system that C.I. Hayes uses to this day.
All in all, I think all the people that I worked with were outstanding. And since my working career ended in the furnace manufacturing, I’ve had a lot of people in the general industry, really contribute to my knowledge and my awareness of the industry. I probably could go on and on and on with people, but I’ll just give a special shoutout to one of them which is Bill Jones who is the CEO of Solar Atmospheres. He taught me quite a few lessons both in business and also from a personal standpoint. I’ve had a whole group of people, Doug, yourself included, that have influenced my life in great ways.
DG: That’s great. You know, Bill Jones, of course, was our first Heat Treat Legend guy, so it’s a good name to mention there.
That’s all very interesting, thank you. When you look back, now, on your career, what would you say, in your humble opinion, are the top two or three most significant accomplishments or achievements that you’ve had?
DH: You mentioned one which was the heat treat books. I’ve had the privilege of writing actually ten books and several of them — six, as a matter of fact — have been in the field of heat treatment. I feel that that’s certainly an accomplishment I’m very proud of. In other words, sharing what I know with others forever, if that makes sense.
The second, of course, is establishing, as you pointed out, The Heat Treat Doctor® brand. I’ll talk a little bit more on that later, perhaps.
The other thing that I guess I would say is that one of the things I’m most proud of accomplishing is doing a lot of good in the industry and doing as little harm to the industry as possible and also helping customers that have critical problems — whether they be in the aerospace industry, the medical industry, the automotive industry — helping them fix their problems and get back in operation again. I’ve been called up at three o’clock in the afternoon and asked, “How fast can you get here? We’ve shut the entire assembly plant down and there are a thousand people on layoff right now. Can you come in and help solve our problems?” That was on a Thursday afternoon, and by Saturday morning, they were back in production. Those are things I’m incredibly proud of. Those are the ones that stand out the most.
DG: Yes, that is impactful when it’s people you’re helping. That’s great.
Look back if you would please, Dan, on your career and say, “What are some of the lessons?” Give us two or three lessons that you’ve learned based on the experiences that you’ve been through.
DH: When I think of what I’ve learned or the lessons that I’ve learned, I think I’ll divide it into two areas: One I’ve learned in business and the second will be what I’ve learned in life. Relative to business, I think the first one is: Be honest. And, of course, be ethical, be fair, try hard, communicate well and have infinite patience. In other words, not everyone understands what you’re saying. You must take the time to explain what you mean to the people you’re dealing with. Although that’s a strange answer on the business side, I think it’s most impactful.
Then, on the life side, my advice would be to enjoy the moment, live in the moment. No matter where you are in the world, no matter what you’re doing, enjoy the moment. I’ll give you one little aside on that: I remember the first day I started to work at Lindberg — I took the train to work, it was right across the street from the train station, I was walking across the street, I was 21-years-old, and I said to myself, “Only 44 years to go.” And I turn around and the 44 years has disappeared like it was yesterday. So, you must enjoy what you do, and you’ll never work a day in your life.
The other thing I would say is to never sacrifice family for work. Never, ever. I made myself a promise as a young man after missing a couple of my oldest son’s birthdays that I would never miss another birthday of his in my life, and I’m proud to say I haven’t. But I think that’s an important life lesson, as well.
DG: Yes, that’s good.
Were there any disciplines? You kind of mentioned a couple here, but were there any disciplines, whether they be life-general or work-specific, that you established during your work career you think have treated you well? Things that you’ve said, “This is a discipline I’m going to do every day, every week” or whatever it is. Is there anything along that line that you can remember?
DH: Well, I have two passions in life right now. From the time I was old enough to remember, I had a passion for science, chemistry, in particular. My curiosity and interest in science has fueled, if you will, my working career. Metallurgy was once defined to me to be “the chemistry of metals,” which I’ll never forget – I enjoyed that definition. My other great passion in life is mathematics. I think that the logical thinking and the problem-solving aspects of that discipline stand out to me as something that help every day.
DG: You mentioned earlier, just briefly, about not missing your son’s birthdays and things of that sort, which makes me wonder about this question which I’ve asked before in other interviews and that is: How about work-life balance? Any tips for people? I, personally, find it difficult to turn off the work at five or six o’clock, sometimes. Any guidance or any suggestions for work-life balance?
DH: First of all, Doug, that’s a hell of a question to ask a workaholic! Howsoever, absolutely, positively, there is a life-work balance. It’s different for each individual person. I will simply share mine and that is the fact that I have the unique ability, once the workday ends (and the workday may be 12+ hours), but once the workday ends, I can immediately transition into relaxation and “fun mode,” as I call it, without one thought about work. The thinking about work maybe creeps in when, finally, about midnight you’ve gone to bed or about 4:00 a.m. when you wake up, but the idea is the fact that I have real quality time to enjoy family and friends and pursue some of my nonwork passions. I don’t know if I should mention these; I mentioned mathematics, but I enjoy poetry and critical thinking, and those are hobbies of mine.
DG: Do you find those hobbies to be exceptionally helpful to you in the sense of giving you a mental break from what you do? Does it make you a better metallurgist, a better engineer?
DH: Yes. I really believe — and this is where that work-life balance comes in — you have to get away from it, whether it be five minutes or five days, you have to get away from it so you can come back to it refreshed and ready to go.
DG: Yes. There is a concept out there about what they call “focused thinking” and there is “diffused thinking.” A lot of times when you’re focused on something and you’re thinking and you just can’t get it, you get away for a while. You’re in the shower or you’re sleeping at night and suddenly, boom — there it is! It comes to you because you weren’t focused on it, you were diffused. You were out doing something else and all of a sudden, the genius moment comes.
DH: I will warn people: Don’t shave when the genius moment comes! It can be a life altering experience. It did happen to me, but that’s another story for another day.
DG: Well, that maybe ties into this next question and that is this: This is maybe a little bit more of a serious question because, you know, life is not, as they say, all a bed of roses. What was the most trying time for you in your work career (whatever you’re comfortable saying) and coming out the other side and looking back, are there any lessons you would have learned from that?
DH: I think one of the things that I think people will find to be a little bit unique, is that in my professional career, I’ve had very few trying times. Yes, I’ve had insanely tight deadlines, horrible/horrific travel schedules, getting to a hotel at three o’clock in the morning when you’ve got to get up at six and go visit a customer (we’ve all been there), and trying to temper customer expectations from “the want” to “the need,” if you will. Those are trying professional times.
But some of the work lessons that I’ve learned from that is that not everyone brings the same intensity or focus to a project as you do. Everyone is not as dedicated, and I want to not say “driven” because a lot of people are, but I hold myself to a high standard and as a result of that, you must learn to temper it down, to use a heat treat term. You have to learn to make sure that the recipient of the knowledge is receptive to the knowledge. I’m very much “old school,” although you’d never guess that from looking at me, but my word has always been my bond. I was taught long ago — if you say it, do it. If you don’t want to do it, don’t say it!
So, yes, I can handle pressure, I can handle a tremendous amount of stress, and I don’t view work as work, I view it as just a true labor of love. But all of that, my personality and all my experiences and all the help I’ve been given through the years, have blunted what you’d call “trying times.” I’m very fortunate in that sense.
DG: That is a blessing, honestly. I don’t know that there are a lot of people that could say that. Most people, I would think, if I asked what the most trying time is, something immediately pops into their head. So, that’s very fortunate, it really is.
Let’s flip that question on its head though: If you can think of one most exhilarating time, what would it be? What was the peak of your career?
DH: Again, I’m probably going to give you a very nonconventional answer. And I will also make the comment that this is, perhaps, a little bit of a sexist comment, as well, but I have to say it: I’m lying in bed one evening with my wife many years ago and I do a “sit up” — “I’ve had that “genius moment” and I said, “Oh my God, I’ve got it: The heat treat doctor!” Now, my wife, who’s semi asleep at this moment in time when I have my eureka moment, glances over at me and says, “Now that’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard!” She rolls back over and goes to sleep. Well, it took me quite a while to get back to sleep. But, anyway, now we’re laying in bed about ten years later and she says to me, “You know, I was wrong. That heat treat doctor idea is really something.” And I’m lying there, Doug, and I’m going — I can count on one hand the number of times in life a man has ever heard a woman say, “I was wrong.” So, although I wanted to do a fist pump, I restrained myself, I lay there in bed basking in the glow of masculine superiority for all of about 30 seconds and then it’s business back as usual.
This is not a personal accolade here but establishing The Heat Treat Doctor® brand has brought heat treating into the forefront of manufacturing, into the forefront of the industry, into the forefront of engineering, that, yes, there is something called heat treating and it is a solution to your needs. So, I view the brand as not so much a personal accomplishment as an industry accomplishment.
DG: Yes. Well, again, I think you’re being modest, because if I can just interject here: You know The Heat Treat Doctor® idea was good, as has proven out to be the case, but there could be other people who would’ve come up with that and it would not have been as successful. Personally, Dan, I think that the reason that is the case with you, specifically, is because of your relatively unique skillset, which you’ve mentioned and I’m just going to highlight here a little bit.
I think you said it was your mother who taught you “all things words” and English and grammar and things of that sort. It’s a unique skillset to have someone who is knowledgeable about engineering, knows what they’re talking about and can do two additional things besides just knowing the engineering: One, they’re patient enough (as you’ve mentioned in an example of someone you’ve talked about) to be able to spend time to explain it, but secondly, they’re good at explaining it. Some people are just not good teachers. You capture all three of those elements, if you will, “the engineering knowhow”: the ability and patience to teach and the ability to explain things well. I think that’s why The Heat Treat Doctor® has worked for you and worked very well.
DH: I think that’s the case, Doug, and I agree.
DG: Last question for you, because I always like to go away and depart on a question of: You know, you’re an old-timer, right? (Not by my assessment but by your own statement. I still think you have a lot of years left here and we look forward to those.) But what kind of advice would you give to the younger people? You know, Heat Treat Today does 40 Under 40 — we’ve done three or four years of that, so we’ve got either 120 or 160 young people under the age of 40. Hearing advice from those more senior in the industry can be helpful. Are there any pieces of advice you would give to those young people?
DH: Yes. It’s a very, very good question. The thing that comes to mind first, and this is perhaps difficult for younger people to understand, but you have to share your knowledge openly and without reservation. Now, I’m not saying give away company secrets. The things you learn in the industry, you must share because you strengthen the industry by doing that, you give the industry a competitive advantage by doing that and you’re helping, in your own small way, to educate the next generation of heat treaters. Because, at the end of your career, I think what you’re going to find is that what is important in our industry is to lead not to follow. In other words, heat treating has to be the most cost-competitive industry or we will cease to exist.
An example I use, and everyone under 40 won’t understand this but I beg you to try: When I was a young man, there was something in this world called the slide rule. We could do marvelous engineering calculations with nothing more than a slide rule. Well, the slide rule is a thing of the past. It’s a device that works perfectly fine, but who would ever use it over a calculator or a computer? It’s a product that’s obsoleted itself. We cannot let our industry obsolete itself.
Another piece of advice is: Don’t worry what people say, what they do or what they think. Do good, contribute to your science and grow the industry. I guarantee you that at the end of your careers, you will feel like you’ve never really worked a day in your life.
The last piece of advice would be to emphasize: Be a hands-on engineer. Be a hands-on person. This is from my father, of course: Look at the practical side of things, the practical skills, the common sense that it takes to do our jobs. And don’t be afraid to go out there and get your hands dirty — soap was invented specifically for that purpose.
If I can indulge and give one last story (I’m all about telling stories with morals). I always have a bar of Lava soap in the bathroom so when I come in from working outside, I can wash my hands. I was out with the grandson one day a few years ago and we went into the house, and we went in the bathroom to wash our hands, and he took one look at that Lava soap, and he said, “Boy, does that taste bad.” And I’m thinking how would he know what Lava soap tastes like if his father hadn’t washed his mouth out with it? The idea being the fact that soap is your friend, soap is not your enemy. Get out there, do good and do work with your hands, contribute to your science and you will be a success.
DG: Thanks, Dan, so much. I appreciate the time you’ve invested, not just with us here today, but for the 50 some years you’ve put into the industry. It’s been a great pleasure knowing you and working with you. We look forward to doing more with you here at Heat Treat Today, but thanks for all the very, very positive contributions you’ve made to the industry. We appreciate your time.
DH: Doug, it’s my pleasure and thank you for doing this. I think it’s going to be a tremendous service to the industry.
DG: Thank you.
For more information:
dherring@heat-treat-doctor.com
Doug Glenn
Publisher
Heat Treat Today
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